BRUNO HUFFEL (NARCISISMO, VÍNCULOS ABUSIVOS E RECONSTRUÇÃO EMOCIONAL) – PODPEOPLE #255

[Music] [Music] [ Music ] [Music] Before we begin, I’d like to ask everyone here to subscribe to the channel, share our content, and hit the bell to receive all the latest updates, okay? Because then we’ll be able to produce more and more episodes, which will be very beneficial for everyone. Our guest today is a clinical psychologist, master in education, and specialist in psychoanalysis. He has focused his work on abusive relationships and emotional recovery. He uses his listening experience to uncover invisible pain and offer practical strategies for those living in difficult relationships. In today’s episode, we’ll cover topics such as mental health, toxic relationships, and strategies for leaving abusive relationships. Bruno Rufel, here. [Music] [Music] Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode of Pod People, the largest mental health podcast in Latin America. Have you ever been the victim of an abusive relationship, encountered a narcissist, a psychopath, and suffered the consequences of a relationship that kills us inside and sometimes out? Well, yes. Today we’ll welcome clinical psychologist Bruno Rufel, and he’ll talk about how to identify and recover from a situation like this. How are you, my dear? Everything’s great. It’s a pleasure to be here with you, to be able to share a little about this sensitive and painful topic, but I always like to bring a pinch of humor to lighten things up and help us overcome. I’ll tell you one thing: we can only laugh at what we’ve already overcome. Perhaps it’s a thermometer of overcoming. When we reach this stage, it’s because we’ve truly managed to process it, to understand that what we’ve been through is just a snippet of our lives and isn’t decisive. It doesn’t have to be decisive. That’s very good. Let’s talk about this, my dear. Today we’re joined by Axon, a really cool supplement that promises focus, energy, and stamina. Have you ever had one of those days where you have a ton of things to do, and then it’s halfway through? It’s like your battery just runs out? Uh, I think every day, right? Being a father, a psychologist, having a pet, having to do physical activity, I think we need a little more, right? While we can’t balance it, we need a boost, right? To perform all these roles, we need a little help, like, every now and then, right? So I’ll tell you that Axon will be very useful to you, as it is to me. I always take it in the morning with my green juice, I mix it. There’s a good thing, right, that nothing in it is gluten-free, lactose-free, vegan, and has no added sugar. Plus, it ‘s GMO-free, too. GMO-free, so we feel super at ease. And it’s a supplement that manages to have a really nice combination of giving you focus and energy without making you agitated. So, I’ll say, when I take mine, during the week of recording, I take it every day. It gives me a feeling that by 6 a.m. I’m still ready to do something. 6 p.m., you know? But it doesn’t cause insomnia, it doesn’t affect sleep, it doesn’t cause tachycardia. So, it’s totally worth it. And then Axon sent you a sample, hey, right, so you can try it and then you can tell us how it went, okay? Red fruit flavor. Delicious. Frat. Yeah, you can mix it with water, you can mix it with juice. Bruno really likes to mix it with water, add ice, and blend it . I like it. He says it works. Mine goes in green juice, right? And there’s something really cool that had a great effect for me. Yeah, I take two, two Sculpts a day, and it also really improved my bowel movements because it has fiber. That’s interesting. So there are men who already have regular bowel movements, so sometimes they even need less than two doses, one dose. Oh, when we take care of our bodies, I think everything flows smoothly, right? The system works smoothly. Definitely. But we women tend to learn a little more, right, dear? Let’s go. Coupon too, Bia. Everyone. Let’s go. There’s a coupon for those watching P de Pipo today. That’s right, Bia. Everyone watching Pod People with us has our Podp coupon on the Axon website, axon.com.br. There’s a QR code on the screen too, and we always emphasize it here to avoid any confusion. Axon with an X, just one X. Just one X. axom.com.br. That’s it. And there’s Instagram. There’s Instagram. What’s the Instagram? Axon Brazil. Official Axon Brazil. That’s it. Focus, energy, and exposure. Axon. Definitely. Very good, dear. You can try it later and let us know, okay? Uh, I wanted you to talk a little. You chose psychology. People who choose psychology always want to help people, right? And within psychology, because of the toxic, abusive relationships that are so difficult for people to break free from? First, identify them, then break free. So now it’s up to you. Now it’s up to me. Let’s go. So, I think the story goes back to childhood. I was always a very shy child. Yeah. And that’s why I lived very isolated, with few friends, I went in silent, left alone. So I became a good listener. So that characteristic stayed, even though I didn’t value it. And you were an only child? No, I ‘m the firstborn of three brothers. Yeah. And so it stayed there because we don’t really value shyness, so what can shyness add to us? And I’m a good listener. And I came to understand later that listening was one of the advantages. Yeah. And then I developed, grew, I worked in sales, talking a lot, but even so, it wasn’t an interesting place for me because I didn’t dedicate myself. I did it, and it did well, but I didn’t feel so good. I dedicated myself, I wanted to grow, I received praise, awards, but still, it wasn’t a place where I’m going to leave home to do this and come back with pleasure, energy, and determination. And then I went to therapy after going through my first abusive relationship. How old were you , Bruno? I was about 24. And then therapy wasn’t for that reason, but it opened up important places for me, and I started to look at myself and understand what I was reproducing, what I, you know, sabotaging my choices. And yeah. So I say that Susana, who is my oldest relationship, right, who was my first and only therapist, she took me out of a place that was almost in the gutter, like, emotionally, financially. You went because of a breakup, it wasn’t a breakup. I started to identify that there were toxic things in that relationship, okay? During the therapeutic process, I focused more on family issues and professional issues , and then I started developing and realizing all of this. And then, you know, it happened, I left that toxic relationship and then I went into another toxic relationship and then another until I finally met my ex-husband, which was a healthy relationship. Yeah. And he’s a psychiatrist. Yeah. And then we, oh, wait a minute, I think we can work together too, right? And then I started studying, I started studying psychology already interested in clinical psychology, with his encouragement. With his encouragement. How cool. I moved cities; my life changed completely. I changed jobs, fields, I became a student; I wasn’t in the same city anymore. And then I realized that from the very beginning, I wanted clinical psychology, but I was still unsure of which field to work in. Yeah. And then, as time went by, you wanted psychology, but exactly what would be your niche, right? You hadn’t identified it yet. Yeah. And then I went through this movement, discovering myself, and then I got closer to psychoanalysis, and I loved it. Then couples psychoanalysis—oh, wait, we don’t talk about it that much. And then I got into this topic and said, “Look, it’s with couples that I want to work.” So, relationships. Day one, I was already talking about relationships. Yeah. But I saw it this way: I was in a healthy relationship. I had experienced the traumas, but I had sort of put them away in a box, even though they continued to affect me and have repercussions. And I focused a lot on, let’s communicate, let’s have intimate moments, right? Focusing on healthy relationship strategies, quality time, the five love languages, and other important tools. But I realized that even though we really want this, there are things that don’t allow it. They happened, just like you had in theory. Patients told me that in practice, it was difficult to have a healthy relationship or thinking about changing your relationship because you were experiencing absurd, unacceptable things. So, what are these unacceptable things? And then I started approaching the topic of toxic relationships, narcissism. And then it was a passion, right? Because not only did I understand what my patients were going through, but I also realized what I had experienced. What you had experienced in the past that you hadn’t named. Exactly. It wasn’t named. It wasn’t named. It wasn’t named. It was like a cascade, like a domino effect, where all the relationships—the most recent, the most lasting—were falling into place, everything I submitted myself to and accepted because I didn’t fully understand myself and what I was going through. Yum. Right? So, it was a hero’s journey process, like, where I discovered myself, and with the help of my patients, I mean, it’s not a vertical relationship, it’s always horizontal, because we learn a lot from this exchange. So I realized there that I also needed to look at myself. And then, as I always say, knowledge protects us. The more we know about something, the more we can avoid it. And you think, for example, you ended up attracting patients who brought stories of abusive relationships, right? That happened, and that’s when you come across this story—it’s familiar to me, let’s say. Well, at what point do you say, well, I have to rethink even your own process, but a process of helping others, because then patients start bringing up demands that it’s impossible for you to ignore, because there’s someone who needs you. So, sometimes it’s not so much about us, but more about doing for the other, especially professionally. When we think about this, right, the role of the psychologist, we talk a lot about empathy, listening, understanding vulnerabilities, where that person comes from, issues of race, gender, social inequalities. And all this shows us that we really need to—imagine me in the shoes of a homosexual man dealing with a marriage situation, a Christian who understands that divorce isn’t the best path, or would be very guilty to adopt that path. And as I tell her that she’s in an abusive relationship, for this patient, let’s put patient X, right? Exactly. As I tell Mariazinha that even though she has all her religiosity, her spirituality very present in her life, that relationship isn’t doing her any good, and for that reason, she needs to strengthen herself and understand what step to take. Yum. Whether it’s to adopt a different attitude, or to leave because it’s impossible to live together. Exactly. Focusing on protecting yourself emotionally, right? Some people aren’t ready to leave yet, so we prepare them to protect themselves, to continue dealing with the situation, to protect themselves, so that later, at some point, if they are, right, it makes sense if they feel ready, they can make that move. And I think people think that leaving without strengthening themselves is always a way of doing things. They leave only to repeat themselves, and then relapse, often returning to the same scenario, repeating the same patterns, or becoming so fragile, so scared, that they deny themselves the right to return to a healthy, peaceful, deserved relationship. So, there’s always a quicker path; it tends to be more unstable, more difficult. That’s why we have to—I usually work with my patients like this— we prepare baby food like this, right? Well-crushed, well-chewed so that it’s palatable and so that we can actually take this step with confidence. And if you had to divide this process, right, into stages, right, from the moment you receive a patient, a patient in an abusive relationship, in one of those relationships that destroys from the inside, right, and sometimes from the outside too, but, right, what would be the stages from arrival, right, to recognition, to strengthening, and would it be possible to have, let’s say, a timeline, a trajectory, a structure that seems common. It’s as if it were like this, right, the person arrives, sometimes they arrive, they don’t even know they’re in the relationship. You yourself said: “I arrived there to talk about my family.” And then after the relationship appeared, give an example, right, of stages, they can even be different because the patients are different. Some people arrive because it’s over In a relationship, some people come because they think there’s a problem at work, not necessarily in the relationship. I wish we could make that very clear. Turn the temperature down a bit , it’s hot, right? That’s OK for me. That’s OK. It’s because the light here for us, I think the light is a little. Yeah, let’s go. I think the first main step is acceptance, right? Because these people arrive quite fragile. It’s usually the first place to be listened to, because in an abusive relationship, you’re cut off from your support network, your friends, your family, you’re embarrassed to talk, right? Either you feel embarrassed or you’ve already talked so many times that you no longer have credibility with these people. Exactly. So, the first step is acceptance, so, uh, I usually say you need to meet with a therapist, like, you really need to feel a good connection there, right? Have a good alliance, feel truly heard and understood. The second point is to really make that appointment. Look, what you experienced is an abusive relationship due to such and such elements. That’s why you feel so much anguish, that’s why you feel hope, that’s why you forgive, and that’s why it’s so hard to leave. What would these signs be in this second stage? In the second stage, we’ll talk about emotional abuse, we’ll talk about chemical dependency generated by a series of hormones: when we’re feeling good, dopamine, when we’re feeling bad, cortisol, and then we chase dopamine again, and for this reason, we become addicted, just like an illicit or licit drug. So the idea is for the person to understand: “Look, there’s a lot working against you.” But what does the person, for example, what do you look for to define it? This is abusive. Because sometimes the person says, “No, it’s not abusive.” For example, when I was treating patients, I had many patients, both men and women, who said, “No, but then we fought, there was stress, and so on.” Then I said: “Wow, but there’s always stress, you’re always fighting.” “No, but it’s silly. Silly things like, ‘You’re not going out,’ ‘Hey, change those clothes,’ ‘You’re not going out with your friends,’ like, as if it were a silly thing, right? This imposition of what the other person will or won’t do, these signals. Yes, exactly like that, right? It all starts with the beginning of overvaluation, compliments, overdoses of attention, and then the criticism and devaluation begin. Those who come to me usually already have a clearer idea that it’s bad. I get it. They’re no longer in the denial phase. They’re like, ‘I came because it hurts, help me get this pain out of me.’ Hmm. So they’re clear about the betrayals, the messages they receive, how many times they forgive and haven’t changed, the verbal, psychological, and physical aggression, the humiliations, the constant criticism about their bodies, their profession, their clothes. Yeah, so when they come to me, they already have a certain clarity, especially because I play the role of Psychoeducation on social media is important. It’s true. And then, those who follow me and feel encouraged to come to me for treatment already have an idea, already have an initial parameter, so they don’t arrive so raw. That’s good, but it doesn’t mean it’s easy to move on to the next stage, right? But this moment is the beginning. Uh-huh. You know, in general, right? From the work you do on social media, the person knows they’re going, they’re there listening, they might even deny it, but then they listen, listen, listen, go. No, but I think it makes sense. And I really like to bring practical examples, analogies, you know, metaphors to make the content and the situation accessible, you know? I think anyone, even those who aren’t literate, can watch one of my videos, you know? Look, I’m living this because it gives examples of situations that happen in everyday life , in relationships, for anyone, right? It could be with anyone. Exactly. And I put myself in that position, so I go to the front line with the person, I say something like: “I lived this, I felt this, I went to hell to know what you’re going through so I can go there.” I know where you are, right? I’ve been where you are today. Exactly, right? Of course, one story will always be a little different from another, but the feeling, the helplessness, the injustice, The feeling of loss, of confusion, is very common to us. It’s interesting that you’re saying that Vittor Frank used a phrase that said we all have our own concentration camp, right? So, like, each of us, we’re all going to live our own hells, right? The stories are different, but there’s no human being who doesn’t go through some very difficult situation at some point in their life, whether for themselves, for others, whatever. So, the fact that you’ve been there creates a greater identification and trust. I like to say that psychology books don’t recommend many of the things I do in the clinic precisely to humanize it, to make it real, so that the person understands they’re not alone, right? That happens to a lot of people, exactly what happened to me when I was a psychologist. So, like, it doesn’t mean that just because I have it, you’re immune to the theory; I’m immune. Exactly. I’m immune. The big point is that the more we learn about ourselves, the more we make decisions and make important sacrifices too. Yeah, I guess. Because when we live in an abusive relationship, we just give up, nothing comes to us, but at the same time, we give up because we’re afraid, right, of saying no, of setting boundaries, of not being accepted, of being rejected. So, a series of emotional factors that impact. And there’s a personality that’s more likely to be the abuser and a personality that’s more likely to be the abused or to abuse. We ‘ll say that the abuser initially had a very traumatic childhood, a series of abuses— very critical or with an overdose of investment, of overvaluation, one thing or another. There are always two extremes, because then our psyche, to protect itself from that excess, that absolute lack, creates a maladaptive defense mechanism, and then the disorder arises. So there are, right, elements that point to a genetic predisposition from the environment and especially from upbringing. Uh-huh. We’ll have some degrees, right, of mild, moderate, or severe narcissism. There’s also psychopathy, which is a much more pronounced level of personality. As for people who attract, I’d say it’s everyone, because even those with high self-esteem can bond, because narcissists are very convincing at first, and we expect that convincing. We have this fantasy that our other half will arrive, that Prince Charming will arrive on a horse that’s also a pot lid, the pot lid. And then we get carried away, ignoring the signs. Yeah, well. So, when we realize that the signs are very clear from the first meeting, an overdose of attention, an overdose of affection, I love you so quickly, let’s move in together right away , because I know my worth, but I also know that I have flaws and that not everyone will be so enchanted by me. So, I need to be moderate in that regard. So, the people I understand to be most susceptible to this type of disorder—we’ll talk a lot about the complementarity of borderline personality disorder. These are more intense individuals who seek solace, seek to feel loved, and will endure many things to avoid the anguish of separation and abandonment. We’ll talk about people with low self-esteem, people who are quite needy for one reason or another, and many who are victims of previous abusive relationships who are fragile. Then the narcissist comes along with that idea of protection, care, and that it will never happen to you again. And we’re convinced to follow this plan. So, it comes much more from this place of expecting something from someone than completely concrete. It’s our initial indication, right? It’s immutable, and can’t be understood, revised, or transformed. Do you think there’s an epidemic today of people idealizing others, and narcissists occupying the space of this idealization, making people believe they are all that, and people buy into this fantasy? I usually say, pardon the word, but we’re living in a pandemic of problems in relationships, right? Problems. Those who are single are on the hunger map because they can’t find anyone. What’s a hunger map? I loved that. See, bro? Yeah. Because it’s really hard to have relationships and have A truly interesting and welcome relationship. Being in a relationship for status, for checking that you’re actually dating to post on social media, that’s possible. You turn a corner and there’s someone wanting to date. The big question is why, what purpose? Is it healthy, does it feel good, is it encouraging, does it make you admire the other person, and so on. But what about the pandemic? Well, there are several other studies, and they’ll say: pathological narcissism affects 1 to 6% of the global population, eh, moderate narcissism affects 15 to 25%, so, let’s say, one in four people would have a moderate level, which is the one that starts manipulating, the one that starts getting secondary gains, hurting, wounding, criticizing the other person. Yum. And the mild narcissist , which is the adaptive type, is just another inflated ego, a specific selfishness, an ambition— those around 40 to 60. That’s why the vast majority of people have a bit of narcissism, but it’s not pathological; it’s adaptive, even due to today’s society, right? Because I think our society today really values the narcissist’s operating mode, right? If you open a social network, there’s no one there who isn’t seducing. It’s unbelievable. So, apart from the professionals who are there and providing content, there are profiles that are just photos, photos of grandiose people, right? Always grand settings, grand cars, grand jewelry, grand… This is a, let’s say, a society that values, not narcissism, but the narcissistic way of presenting oneself. Yes, the social malaise that Freud already talked about back in 1800, he talked about it a lot, like, how much we need to show, right, show this ego that it’s relevant and at the same time we need this echo, right? We need people who keep saying things like: “You’re incredible, you’re wonderful, you deserve everything because you have the car, the house, the trip, or the clothes, and this actually creates this chasm between purpose, essence, essence, why do we want a relationship?” Then people will tell us to get married, have kids, throw a big party, right? Then buy a house, have cars, and travel. But that’s not purpose, it’s not even meaning, nor purpose. It’s following a ready-made recipe and reproducing it. Exactly. And it is, and it’s the categorical imperative of society. Yeah. Let’s think about women. I have patients, women in their 30s, rushing or wanting to transform that man into the wonderful father they want for their children. Yeah. There won’t be either one or the other. There won’t be a husband, or a wonderful father, or a husband, or sometimes even a child, because they wait for him to be willing, and it’s quite possible that if he’s not very interested in demonstrating a social role of a perfect family, he’ll put it off, and then when she demands it, he’ll discard it. Yum. And then she feels like the worst person in the world for having trusted and then giving up on a big dream of motherhood. So, I see it a lot. That’s interesting. Are you saying something? Uh, yesterday I was talking to a guest who I thought was so beautiful, and he asked about some memorable moments. He mentioned the birth of his four children. And then it was interesting that I said, “Oh, but not one in particular, because with all four of them, I was moved by my wife’s happiness.” Yum. And then you realize it wasn’t him, it was seeing that other person, the longtime partner happy. That’s love, right? Like, it’s you rejoicing in the other person’s happiness, right? Well, I see that most men, with rare exceptions, want a child for their wife’s happiness when they love that woman, or they want something that can help control that woman, but it’s always something that involves a bias towards the female figure. Can you see this in abusive relationships? For narcissists, the child is an extension of the ego, right? So he needs to be very clear about the benefits he will get, what the purpose and usefulness of that child will be, and then he fulfills the woman’s wishes, but he doesn’t necessarily take responsibility for paternity, he won’t meet the child’s needs, he won’t be a loving father. And I see many women saying, “Oh, but he pays attention to the child. A little one pays attention to the child, but he has difficulty separating because “Children really like their father.” Of course, innocent children will naturally like them. Yes, but we see this father as the child grows, and I see some patients over a period of time, when this father loses interest. So that tiny, babyish child, whom he took pictures of in the beginning, will no longer be useful because he starts to be confrontational. Look, that’s not how you treat Mom, or I don’t want it to be that way. And then there’s no use for that snake anymore. It starts to be just a fight for attention, a weakening of my sense of superiority, of authority, because the other is criticizing me. Exactly. And that happens. And then it really gets to this stage, the mother becomes single even though she’s married. And when in an abusive relationship, in general, this partner we have for men and women— this is a fact, of course—the child stops being your object of social gain in the sense of, look how cute, look, I’m leaving here, I’m a great father. And then there’s a park, it becomes more time photographing and filming than playing with the child. It’s unbelievable. We see it. Well, from that point on, the child grows up and begins to see the confrontation that is natural, because they’re becoming an adult, they have to prepare for it. Well, it no longer serves to enhance their self-worth, because the child thinks their father and mother are the most wonderful things in the world, right? It’s part of it. Reference figures. Reference figures. When this stops happening, the narcissist only uses the child as a maneuver to manipulate the other, their partner. Exactly. As punishment mainly, right? So, ah, let’s go. Most mothers, right? This instinct is protective. And then, in this case, if they mess with the child, the person becomes fragile, vulnerable, afraid. So, the narcissist will use the child, whether in divorce proceedings, not picking up, not paying child support, or exposing the child to situations the mother doesn’t like, to generate friction, confusion, and keep the child orbiting around them. At the same time, These children of narcissists grow up with a total lack of affection or the attentive gaze of these figures. So they grow up with low self-esteem, needy, and then many even develop the disorder, right? There’s a hereditary inheritance, right? And social, right? Environmental. H, but mainly they will reproduce these same behaviors later in their adult life, whether in one direction or the other. Exactly. Whether in a dependent direction or in a way of using, abusing. It’s because you learn, like our native language, Portuguese, right? Let’s say we take a trip abroad. If someone speaks Portuguese nearby, we automatically become attentive. Oh, I recognize that. Exactly. When we live in an environment where relationships are abusive, because my father is a narcissist or minimally toxic, this becomes naturalized. I learned, that’s what I’ll repeat later. It’s the language of love, right, abusive, dysfunctional that I learned. There’s one, we have some pictures here, because we’re living through a pandemic of narcissists in love. There’s a pandemic of dysfunctionality in relationships, as you put it. But why do you attribute this pandemic of narcissists? Because we have to separate, as you said, there’s the pathological narcissist, there’s the almost circumstantial narcissist within these values, and there’s a slice of reactive narcissists, right, at a given moment. But why do you think people are so aware of this? Or do I really think there’s a pandemic? Society today aims for success and toxic happiness, right? At any cost. Exactly. And this success hurts whoever it hurts, whatever the cost. So, I need to be in a prominent place, I need to be the best at my job, I need to be the prominent figure in my family, I need to be the role model for my friends. So I always need to be in this place of nurturing an independent ego, just like being human. It turns out that society pushes us to the limits, makes us desperately desire this. And it’s obvious that I don’t charm everyone, it’s obvious that I don’t please everyone. my friends, it’s obvious that I won’t receive all the invitations, but specifically I’m going to make manipulative moves, right, of control so that this be effective, so that this is, right, embedded in my reality. And then I start adopting abusive behaviors. Since satisfaction justifies it, the ends justify the means, I keep reproducing it until it becomes unconscious, because come on, habits are harder at first, but there comes a time when we do it without realizing it, right? Without even realizing the brain circuitry working automatically. And then this is reproduced so much that you say, oh, I was just talking to someone else, I didn’t cheat on you, I didn’t kiss you, I didn’t go out, it was just a conversation. So you start naturalizing things that are initially quite small, subtle, for a place of complexity, and they become operating modes. Yum. Right? That’s why they say: “Ah, OK, 1% to 6% of other studies, depending on the analysis, say what a pathological disorder this is. There really is no cure. Treatment is extremely rare and difficult, with very low adherence. They don’t seek it because logic, the way it works, I’m perfect, I don’t make mistakes, I’m not guilty, I have no remorse. So why would I submit myself to a stranger who will analyze my behavior? So this is a form of aggression to the ego. More recent studies have shown this: “Why does the victim say: “But I gave so much love, I, you know, invested too much and the more I invested, the more distant he made, the more he punished me.” And then studies in psychoanalysis say: “Look, for the narcissist, any intimacy is as if they were going to make themselves more vulnerable. Exactly. More visible. Their weaknesses would come to light. Yum. So the more you seek intimacy, the more they repel you. Yum. So, the logic, when we think of gray stone, gray stone is a technique to protect ourselves emotionally, to avoid chaos, conflicts, arguments, but it’s also to occupy a space of neutrality. If I don’t get too close, I avoid the narcissism’s reactions of attack, fight, camouflage, exactly. Because within that primitive bias of our existence, fight or flight, if we get close to the narcissist, they effectively go into battle. Yum. Right? The idea is that they don’t reveal themselves, the idea is that they don’t let us access their fantasies. Let’s put it this way, in reality, they always reveal themselves externally and to superficial relationships in a pretty OK way, right? Generally, On the surface, they’re incredible, as you say. What do you mean? Narcissistic people are super communicative, super intelligent, seductive, and they do well in life because they’re always around them, right? So, naturally, social and material progress occurs. But they reveal themselves in private as this more punitive, controlling, manipulative figure, but there’s an even deeper version, which is that they don’t reveal it. Yeah. Which is what would be revealed in therapy, right? Look, your ego is fragile, you’re envious, you feel angry, you’re not all that you always thought you were. Your behaviors are hurting and harming other people, so you need to reconsider that. And it’s this place that is inaccessible in all of them. All of them. Now, every narcissist attracts. Yes, I could be canceled for saying that, right? I don’t think so. No, on the contrary. I think there’s a logic within this reasoning. It’s a logic. Yes, because they need to sustain their natural supply, they need a reserve of supply. Exactly. An infinite source. Uh-huh. That’s why no matter how much we give in a relationship, it’s not enough. Uh-huh. And it’s not what they expect either, because psychologically, they don’t even know what they want. They just have an insatiable hunger. A recent analogy I’ve been making, I don’t know if you’ve seen that series The Walking Dead or at least know about zombies. No, you’ve seen it, Bru? The Walking Dead. So let’s go, Bruno, there’s a problem. At some point in the world, a problem occurs, everyone, right, people become zombies and then they turn into fresh meat, blood to survive, right, to feed themselves. And they lack critical thinking, they have this insatiable hunger, a thirst, a hunger, but they have no awareness of why and that they are truly no longer human. They have become a being there, walking around… wandering the world in search of nourishment. Uh-huh. Let’s say that dysfunctional mechanism that didn’t work very well, where the disorder sets in—I can make this analogy like this: at some point you become a zombie and then you go after it, and that’s why the manipulative behaviors, why the ego, why the love bomb, why the criticism of devaluation, why the discard— all of this to somehow try to satisfy. Uh-huh. And it doesn’t satisfy. You said that everyone cheats in this aspect of this insatiability of reserve, right, of reserve supply. So, uh, it might be fine with one person, but they’ll, uh, activate and leave several other people on hold, or simultaneously, because if there’s more or less here, there’s here, there’s here— it’s almost like having a reserve. Exactly. The narcist needs flattery and an audience. Uh-huh. So, often even a little flirtation with a coworker. Uh-huh. Hmm. To have that feeling that, oh, I, right, he liked me, he’s interested, even if he doesn’t go through with it, but he needs those doses. So we see this a lot, and it’s unanimous: side conversations, recurring and very frequent betrayals, double marriages, like, dating one person and dating another in another city or having another family, because they really need this to feed their ego and ease their anguish. And I keep thinking, uh, I think cheating is a lot of work. Imagine having two relationships and it’s not possible for me, maybe even because I have ADHD. I would call one one, the other another, there would come a time, look, I have to confess, because it’s a lot of work, because you create realities, multiple realities, it’s like you have to hold plates, right? That balancing of plates, that Chinese thing. They’re not Chinese who say that wand and hold plates. They don’t have this thing like, uh, guys, is it exhausting or not? I don’t think so, because the relationship itself is already a high-maintenance investment. So, you really do need it. If you take someone seriously, it’s self-maintenance. The thing is, the narcissist doesn’t have depth, right? First, they’re not interested in satisfying you, meeting your needs. So they won’t get involved, they’ll seduce you, charm you , and that’s it. They won’t know if you’re happy, if you’re satisfied, ask you about your dreams, right? Help you with those dreams. They’ll simply have you there to provide that supply. So I’d say the most exhausting part is the Love Bomb, where they really have to give a lot to trap you, the initial bait to lure you in. But after this very short phase, they don’t need to invest anymore. So they just drop crumbs to hook you, give you hope that one day things will be like before. It turns out they can manage multiple people, right? I think this is a very interesting management skill that could be used for other things, for good, right? Wow, because thinking about it, keeping people as backups must be a lot of work. And I say that the narcissist’s personality is so self-centered, self-sufficient, that he’s not afraid to sin or make mistakes, because if he’s discovered, he’ll gaslight you, confuse you, say it’s your fault, and then he doesn’t deal with the consequences. Yeah. Oh, I’ve been discovered. I’ll go there, I’ll try, sorry. If I can’t, I’ll walk away. The person will feel withdrawal, come running to get me, and then I ‘ll go back to my place, as I always have been. So the narcissist is kind of reckless like that. He does n’t calculate risks, he goes and does things to satisfy himself and then manages the confusion along the way. Yeah, you manage things like that, right? It never hurts too much, right? Because it’s almost a thing, a 71, right? A 71 is the narcissist has a bit of an emotional 71, right? Because he gets caught there, eh, in betrayal, but no, but betraying because of this, because of that other thing, because I don’t know what. It’s never like, yeah, look, sorry, really nothing to do with it, but I failed, right? That sometimes happens, but people go for this, for that, for that other thing, it’s complicated, right? They really aren’t interested, they have no empathy, they feel no remorse. So they Not really. If it hurt us, okay, deal with it and go back to the scene where I control you, where everything’s supposedly okay. I give you a week of affection, care, and attention, and then we’re back in the same cycle again. So he doesn’t have that empathy and says, “Oh, the other one hurt.” Or even says, “Geez, I messed up, I’ll do it differently, I admit it, right?” Or he just says it, just says it, right? And it’s still super rare for him to say it. I’d say that 90% of the people I see don’t offer an apology, not even that initial act of crying, of saying I’m sorry. And I usually say, “So, make a list, ask him to make a list of himself.” What are you sorry for? So, what exactly is good about that, right? They don’t, they don’t have it because they’re always in a rut, they don’t listen attentively, it’s always superficial. So, it’s a, it’s a buzzing noise. Yeah. Right? This buzzing makes them increasingly distant and less concerned with what the other person is feeling or the impact of it. Now, what’s their reaction when someone is in a successful therapeutic process, everything is going well, and they manage to get rid of it, right? Being rid of it is complicated. Yes. Yes. They rid everyone. But exactly. Like changing clothes. But the big question is, they’ve been rid of it. When a narcissist is rid of it, that’s it, it really messes with their ego. It’s because the person can say, “Look, it’s not over anymore.” It’s like annihilation, right? Like it’s cocked and fired. Because for them, it’s unbearable to deal with this situation, this idea that they weren’t important, that they weren’t relevant. And then the fury, the narcissistic fury, sets in. Yum. Punishment ensues, often aggression, and they need a restraining order. Yum. Well, the smear campaign comes along so that he really comes across as the victim, and usually with the victim’s contacts, right? Friends, at work, with family members. I’ve had a lot of cases like this that have had a big impact on my work because they were couples in the same field, so they circulated in the same spaces. Yeah. And then the professional also ended up having to, you know, do a lot of work to rebuild and everything. So, for me, narcissistic rage is the worst phase because it also involves separation, custody , and then the little ones involved end up suffering, right? When you have children, it must be really bad. And the part of narcissistic rage also involves this place of always making us feel guilty. Yeah. So, even if we’ve given this cry for freedom, that alone isn’t enough. We remain in a place of guilt and still feeling responsible for everything that went wrong. You mentioned that, yeah, there are professions, there are careers that are more prone to narcissists, right? Anything more linked to power, to projection, there’s that possibility. Well, I see, for example, in religious institutions, I see very clearly narcissistic personalities, at least in a way, uh, not in-depth, but that thing, it seems, gives the feeling of seeming. These people are the ones who often counsel someone who comes there and says: “I’m suffering this, this, this.” And I’ve seen many of these people reaffirm victim blaming. Uh-huh. That’s a double suffering, right? Yes. When it involves the dogmas of some religions, that’s it, right? It keeps us trapped in an environment where we don’t feel comfortable, which is truly unhealthy, dangerous for us. When we still have, let’s say, paternal and maternal figures as references, support, uh, not support, but who say, “You have to sustain the relationship.” You see? On the contrary, reaffirm. Exactly. The son or daughter goes there to complain to their parents that they’re going through a difficult situation in their relationship, and the parents go and say, “No, but try a little harder, give it a chance, maybe it’s work stress.” And they ignore and invalidate the pain of the person who goes there for help in a religious environment, even more so, right? Because they are those figures, in quotation marks, who have direct contact with God, like, right? The intermediaries. Exactly. God’s spokespeople. And there they have power, they carry much greater weight. So, fortunately , the closest people I’ve seen, whether in the office or on social media, They’re managing to detach themselves a bit from the idea that marriage is forever, that the relationship is forever, precisely because they’ve found religious figures who offer a more careful perspective. I’ve also seen pastors address this issue recently, but I recently saw a pastor’s wife who exhibited all the characteristics of a narcissist and cheated on her as a teenager. So, look at the seriousness of the betrayal, the pastor, a teenager—a series of issues involved, and they often go there and maintain the blame, and they often use it as a form of control. Yes, you said the worst thing is the rage phase, right, which is this thing of badmouthing the person, blaming them. And it’s very common that during this period, the person ends up coming back, even with a question like, “Oh, I can’t take it anymore.” Uh-huh. I’m going back because it’s unbearable. When these people return during this period and everything repeats itself, how do they find the courage to say, “No, this time I know I’m going to leave.” The anger will be felt, it will pass, and I’ll move on. I often say, and it’s one of the techniques I use, that relapse is a learning experience. Because if we, right, understand it as a mistake, as a failure, or blame ourselves for having made that move, even though we have all the evidence that it would have been worse for their life, we’ll understand why they made that move. Let’s explore this and truly use it as a learning experience, because come on, we’re talking about a person who comes to treatment as if they were an addict, right, of drugs. Yes. And relapses are, so relapses are part of it. So, one of the first things I say is, look, you’re going to relapse, you’re going to feel ashamed, but tell me, okay? Because if you hide from me, I can’t help you. So it’s okay if you go back to the person, if you unblock them, accept them again, if you forgive the betrayal or physical assault or something like that, as long as you let me know so I can help you understand why you’re submitting to this situation. And most of the time, what’s the reason for this relapse or this submission? There are several, right? I say it’s not one thing or another, it’s one thing and another, and another, and another. There’s emotional dependence, there’s the withdrawal phase that’s cruel to the victims, there’s that relationship of if I’ve already invested two years, I’m going to stay here because otherwise those two years would be wasted. In many cases, it’s 10, 20, 30, right? So this feeling of time invested, there’s the hope of promises, right? Oh, so if I do a little more, if I change here, if I try harder, if I act differently, right? There was a patient who said , “Look, I don’t want to hear your voice anymore, so if I come back, you’re going to be quiet. I don’t want to know about your feelings, I don’t want to know about your work, I don’t want to know about your fears.” So she saw the vessel, exactly, it’ll be the same thing. So, automatically, upon returning, she would sign a contract saying, “I am now mute and I can’t express myself and I won’t be met in any way.” It wasn’t like that before, but now it is, right? Official, official. So that’s it, with each relapse it gets worse, because we’ve already given the idea that that limit can be crossed, right? And for this reason, we increasingly subject ourselves to the most diverse forms of violence. The acute and constant discomfort, like, you can’t breathe, right? It’s like being on a war front, always on alert, because any step could be a risk, it could get worse, right? And it always is, right? Always, unfortunately. Limits are always being tested, right? And what I see a lot in stories is that people don’t know what to expect. So, like, oh, he’ll wake up feeling good today, he’ll wake up feeling bad, there’ll be a fight, there’ll be blame. So they’re always in a state of absurd tension, and then there’s really no emotional capacity to handle it, right? It builds up. Exhaustion, right? I keep thinking, imagine spending years in a relationship where you’re criticized daily. Mmm. Like it’s like that, right? A daily dose of poison that slowly kills you. Daily. And when these people leave, right, they leave, how do they leave for a relationship? And often it’s like… I see many people leaving abusive relationships and starting a healthy relationship with someone reasonably healthy. Nobody’s perfect, but the person doesn’t fit in. It’s as if it’s the opposite, the person goes looking for fights. Yum. That’s very interesting. That person who was a victim of fights starts looking for fights. First, you live in the relationship, in the unstable relationship. It’s jealousy, insecurity, criticism, devaluation. When you go to a stable, safe environment, you come back addicted to dysfunctional behaviors. So, you continue to disbelieve, you continue to distrust, you continue to be insecure about your body, your image, your cognitive capacity. So, you go in extremely wounded and fragile. Yum. I usually say it like a puppy that gets hit, and then even if you want to pet it, it becomes very wary that another attack will soon come. So, even if they find people with a good connection, with functional ways of relating, they’ll be the one to sabotage the relationship, because they’re not fully healed yet, they don’t understand why they went through that, what scars it left. And a lot of people also come to me thinking they’re toxic, and they’re narcissists. Because they’re kicking doors, attacking, so much provocation, right? They’re pushed to the limit that they no longer recognize themselves in their attitudes and behaviors. You say people can leave these relationships by mimicking what they’ve suffered. Exactly. By being possessive, by being toxic, because they’re trained, right? They were trained in this relationship to understand that that behavior is expected in a relationship. Uh-huh. So, if someone says they’re going to work overtime, wait, is it really overtime? Send me your location, send me a picture of where you are, I want to see who’s going. Oh, you can’t go to soccer games anymore , or you can’t go out for coffee with friends or to the movies, because all of this creates anxieties that, when left untreated, just simmer, right? Any sign. It’s interesting that I think this doesn’t just come from relationships, right? I think this is in the person’s history before the relationships. We talk about, we talk in psychoanalysis about the second phase of trauma, which is the moment when we relive old things, and specifically this. We have a first record, it’s like an initial database where we, this here is happiness, this here is sadness, this here is jealousy, this here is fear. And there the first records were installed. Then we relive experiences that trigger the divertimentoes, let’s say, right? Yes. And then, for that reason, we repeat. And by repeating, the pain is the same. And the idea is that we work on our emotions to be able to digest what was not digested before. And at the same time, you know, I saw a lot of people, for example, and nice people, men, women, start relationships with people who clearly suffered an abusive relationship, people who entered willing to make it work, but who were unable to maintain the relationship, because of this instability or this distrust or this need for adrenaline, I think it was a relationship so full of adrenaline, very nice people arrive, no, no, it doesn’t work. I understand. I had a patient who said, “I like her, I love her, I understand, I deeply understand what she went through, because, I worked with her, I observed, I saw, I witnessed. So, in this year, I have no peace. Yes, otherwise, I’m the one who will end up with emotional burnout. And I’m not blaming anyone, but I can’t handle it. Yes, right? Exactly. It comes with a heavy burden, it comes with a heavy burden. And generally, someone who treats themselves, who takes care of themselves, who understands what they want from life, won’t carry, no matter how much they like it, a person who, right, and that’s it, who understands, understands even as a friend, and often would understand. But then establishing an intimate relationship is different, bringing it into your intimate life, right? Because, probably, this healthy person has already tried to negotiate, has tried to talk, has already explained A to B that it’s not like that, that it’s another way, and then it seems like they don’t get it, right? They don’t internalize, they don’t internalize, because they really need a whole process of understanding their own story. to choose, which has to be part of a therapeutic process, not within a relationship, right? Exactly. And today, with the popularization of social media, mental health professionals talking about everything on the internet, this has become much more tangible. Psychoeducation has become possible to understand emotions, manage emotions, understand needs, family patterns—all of this is available on the internet, on all social media. So, we can nourish ourselves, fuel ourselves. It turns out that we also live in a kind of blindness, right? I usually do one whenever I start a therapeutic process. I say: “Look, we’re going to do an archaeological process here. Go slowly, with a little brush here, removing the excess, discovering the treasures, what we need to enhance within you, while at the same time discarding the bones, what you don’t need to carry. So that you understand, look, there is another life, there is another style of relating, there is a trustworthy and comfortable place to be with someone and also to not be with someone, especially. This is very interesting, right? The person understands that they, as you said at the beginning, they are not half of anyone’s orange. Everyone is a whole orange. Exactly. The other comes to overflow or not? Or not. Exactly. To complement this orange. But this whole orange is already someone, right? Yes. And it’s very difficult because I usually say, it’s not instant noodles, it’s not ready in 3 minutes, right? It really needs a process. First, openness, choosing the right places for you Having important reinforcements there that help you gain clarity. Then, you go through the difficult part of changing the habit itself. So there’s a path, a trajectory, but I also usually say, you’ve given yourself your whole life to this person, so now invest in yourself, take that same energy that was drained by the relationship and focus, go study, learn a language, travel, improve your resume, connect with friends, make new friends, go… I usually say, I just make analogies like this. It’s a very good analogy. I seem like a child psychologist, because I bring up several stories to illustrate. What are the parables, right, that have always worked so well in the history of humanity? Then I say, we’re like a bee. A bee doesn’t go to a single flower, get the pollen, and then be satisfied. It migrates from flower to flower, replenishing itself, nourishing itself, drinking from different sources. And that’s what we do. So, being a girlfriend or boyfriend Someone’s identity is a slice of the pie. We have to be, it can’t be your identity, right? Exactly. We have to be good professionals. We have to find fulfillment in this. We have to be curious about discovering new places, restaurants, cafes, traveling. We need to validate and value quality time with our loved ones. So, we’re guiding all of this along these paths and advising people that it is possible . It’s because I see that people generally have an expectation that, those people who get involved in toxic relationships, that the relationship will bring the solution to everything. So, it’s not going to fix your love life, your professional life. No one will know the meaning and purpose of our lives. No one will do it for us, right? What only the other person, what is the meaning and purpose of your life? You didn’t have to give up sales, you didn’t have to struggle, it’s not transferable. Yes. And I say that a relationship requires more work. That’s how it is, right? High maintenance. So, if you already have questions If you’re disorganized in your life, focus on that. Uh-huh. You ‘re well prepared to receive, because I say, healthy people don’t interact with sick people. It’s very difficult. They may even start, but it doesn’t go anywhere. They persist, but they don’t persist because the person is aware of what they fought for to get well, to be healthy. Exactly. Exactly. So, the big tendency is that if you want to listen to pagode, you tune in to pagode radio. If you want to listen to rock, you tune in to rock radio. So, if you’re at a low frequency and still need healing, you’ll attract people with this dynamic. You won’t attract someone healthy. It’s a rare exception, but that’s it. It doesn’t last. It’s true. It’s true. Synchronicity, right? It can attract, but it doesn’t last, right? Yeah. Exactly. That moment of initial passion that ‘s also common in relationships, because I say, a narcissistic relationship takes what’s common in relationships and intensifies it. Exactly. In the beginning, especially, right? Well, so, that passion, that desire to be together, those hours of conversation, that curiosity about the other person’s life, that planning for the future—that will happen. But there comes a time when, oh, wait a minute, but oh, this doesn’t work for me, I’m not willing to let go of this, this person isn’t ready yet, maybe for this relationship. It leaves a lot of scars, right? I myself, in my personal life, have already made these moves. Look, you’re really cool, you’re still in my life as my friend, but not in the relationship. Because, like, you didn’t want to give up what you had already gained, right, in terms of peace. And so, as a psychologist father, we fall a lot, and that was one of the things I found myself doing with my narcissists: this place of come here, give me your problem, I’ll take it in, I’ll treat it, I’ll take care of it, and you’ll become a better person. And that’s where I, you know, stumbled , shot myself in the foot, because why not, right? Well, and it wasn’t a conscious thing, like, “Oh, I’ll take care of you.” It was like that, because my narcissists were vulnerable like that, so it was that constant victimization. I said: “Oh, poor thing, I’ll help. Uh-huh. I’ll guide you here, right? I’ll help financially, I’ll help emotionally. And that’s when I started, right? But then I realized everything that was happening. It’s hard, right? Yeah, it’s very hard. It’s not easy. Bruno asked a question today, right, Bru, that I found very interesting, that we live in this time of apps, people look for people in relationships, on apps, more on apps than websites, right? And this is this excess of possibilities, right? Because when you go there, there are millions of options on the menu, it’s almost like choosing a wine, I don’t know, choosing a food on iFood, right, you have several options. And then he said something, doesn’t this excess of supply also make people start to see others as commodities? Yes. And it’s much easier to discard commodities, because I buy a wine, I don’t like it, I buy another. Balmon’s liquid loves talk a little, talk talk a little about that, right? How accessible it is. I turn you to the left; you’re no longer useful. I turn you to the right, I give you access to exchange. And that’s it. I didn’t like it, I don’t invest, I don’t work, I don’t understand whether it makes sense or not. And really close, right, next in line, file two. This, this is destructive, because we’re still in the logic of looking for a partner, the steady, the eternal, happily ever after, which is what I see most like, oh, but we had so much harmony, so much affinity, so we expect someone who mimics our tastes too. We’re super demanding like that in some aspects, right? We want people to like the same way of dressing, the same music, the same food, think the same way, anticipate our thoughts, right? So, there’s a chasm between the ideal and the real, and this reality is quite contaminated by these perceptions, like, at all times, I download an app, I have someone to go out with, I have someone to be intimate with. Exactly. Sex. And there’s one thing: the human brain wasn’t designed to have many options, right? There’s a very interesting study in English. Well, every time you start having too much of anything, be it money or sexual possibilities, possibilities, well, up to a certain point you keep going, it gives you a feeling of joy, but when it’s too much, you know, it becomes a compulsion. And then, the thing you were looking for as a partnership, complementarity, becomes merely an addiction. So it’s like the person who has so much money that they don’t know what else to do. So they start inventing. You know those people who start inventing? Then they buy a plane, take it on the plane to have a party on the other side of the world. Why? You know? If you can have a get-together with friends, you know, in your living room and maybe give people a hand, it’s worth doing this. A kind of exchange. We talk about basic needs, social needs, and status needs, right? But I’ve been saying that for a long time, because the basic needs are this: a barbecue with my friends, okay? OK. What really matters, right? The social needs are the barbecue, the social media. Look, I’m celebrating. And the status needs are that gold-leaf steak you eat at that super exclusive restaurant on the French Riviera. It turns out we’re pushed to consume these things. So, cell phones are released every year, clothes have a new trend all the time. So, we find satisfaction at that moment. And, but the issue is when people become consumer objects, you ‘re doomed to be left with no satisfaction. No one will satisfy you, you won’t build anything. So, the more options you have, the more addictions you open up, and addictions, uh, not just addictions, depression, anxiety, general addictions, uh, and even the suicide rate increases. Yes. Like pornography, for example. Uh-huh. Nowadays, we talk a lot about the tiger, the betes, but pornography is really eating away at the market, right? With so many options, imagine someone addicted to pornography, no one will satisfy them. And that’s the no one. You’ll get the best man in the world, right? And you won’t, because that market there is so much performance, it’s infinite possibilities, infidelity, and this also stimulates something that, in my view, is intriguing: the issue of fetishes, right? How do people deal with fetishes? Because there’s this thing like, my wife can’t be the one to satisfy my fetish, because if she submits to that, if she accepts that, I won’t see her as having the same value. So, there are a series of intersections that do stimulate the consumption of people, things, and experiences, and that completely contradict what we need in this context to be happy. We need much less, certainly, much less consumption, much less stimulation. I don’t know, and there aren’t many fetishes that are created externally. I remember when that movie 50 Shades of Grey came out, everyone wanted that type. I said: “Guys, what a lack of creativity, right? What’s this? I mean, everyone wanted this, no one knew. And also, the fet is only valid if it’s fun and cool for the other person. If not, exactly. It won’t be. And it’s okay that it won’t be. Why do we have to be the spoiled child who will get everything they want? Yeah, that’s the point. We still insist on being the spoiled child who wants it. Exactly. And the more we access resources, power, the more we allow ourselves to do this. And then it snowballs into a situation where nothing is a limit for me anymore. Exactly. So, I humiliate people at work, I have people from friendships of convenience, uh, I don’t value fets, so like, what can my child buy or have because they really won’t get my attention. So this makes relationships really quite fragile, quite incipient. It makes people open up the existential void that they themselves are digging. And this becomes a pandemic, because these same children or these same relationships that have this kind of stimulus will reproduce this and will reproduce and reproduce. So being healthy is counter-hegemonic, let’s say, right? Exactly. Being healthy is swimming against the tide, because the current takes you to a place where you become toxic for one reason or another. Yeah, people choose their emptiness, right, and then they’re already inside it, right? Yeah, captured. Captured by the very emptiness they created. Bru, let’s go to reporter Pipinho. Let’s go. Reporter Pipinho. Yeah, we have a community called sustainable human being, which are people who love knowledge. And then, about 15 days before you come here, we make your Instagram available, which is pisc.brunfel, with two FS. That’s it. And then they go there, browse. We ask them not to follow, only to follow after the episode airs. And then they take and send questions they’d like to ask you. If they were here, if we were live here, right? Who knows, maybe a day. So we select, we don’t change the question, we just select the topics, eh, so as not to repeat the same thing. Can we start? Let’s go. Let’s go. Let’s go. First, Many people leave an abusive relationship and feel ashamed or afraid of others’ judgment. How can we regain self-esteem in a world that still judges so much? People are still interested in others, in their reactions. Good question, right? They’re already moving on to the next one. So, I say that the process is very individual and silent. We don’t need to announce anything yet. We really need to listen to ourselves, feel ourselves, create a very simple routine, very easy to take care of ourselves, right? I usually say that 1% a day is worth more than 50% in a day and then a vacuum, right? So, the more we do this solitary, individual movement, the more chances we have of success. And we only expose ourselves when everything is right, when we feel ready to keep announcing that we are, right? Yeah, it’s like, oh, I’m going to run 10 km and then it’s the first day, no, I run 10 km, then I don’t continue because I can do it, right? Right? Once you’ve stabilized this level, it’s not the first and only time you’ve… Exactly. Because, concretely, we can’t be driven by motivation in the process of healing from an abusive relationship. Motivation comes and goes with the same intensity. So, the idea is to have consistency, the idea is to maintain small habits. You need to announce them, you don’t need to announce them, especially because it’s much more internal, it’s an autoerotic process, let’s say. I get it. And there’s something these days, right? Everyone posts everything on social media, so it’s really bad that people have lost their privacy. People who break up because they were betrayed, then make a speech: “I was betrayed, I’ll stop, I’ll stop.” A while later, they get back with the person, for what? No one even asked. The person who’s giving an explanation that wasn’t requested, right? These days, their lives are so exposed, right? A luxury object, right? People expect a statement. Exactly. Regardless of whether it’s an artist, someone of national importance, they want to satisfy what people expect. In a group of friends, people expect: “Hey, are you okay? Not okay, back, not back. The idea is that we protect ourselves from this, because especially abusive relationships, like, there are countless marks, and these marks have probably already been announced on this network. So, the more you can protect yourself, it has to be an internal truth, right? More chances of success. Yes, this mainly has to be the guiding thread, the internal truth. Your internal truth. Next, Bru. Do you believe it’s possible to prevent young people from falling into cycles of abusive relationships through dialogue or teaching about the topic in schools or at home? Great question. I believe so, because when we have access and we also talk about sex education in schools, studying differences, right? The immigrant, the Black, homosexual, weight differences, women and men, religions. When we realize that there is a movement in this direction, we reap real insights in children and adolescents who grow up much more open to differences. But we don’t talk about emotions, we We don’t talk about relationships, we don’t talk about violence and all kinds of violence. It’s happily ever after. No one touches it after that. Exactly. Love is that platonic place that exists in books, series, and movies, which at some point will arrive for these young people, and they will experience this idealization and then realize that it’s not. Especially with teenagers, where everything is intense, right? You either love or hate. Psychoeducation in schools, in social spaces, but even within the family when possible, because sometimes the family is also the origin of these behaviors, right ? But these spaces where we can also give voice so that things can be revealed and the authorities can act to protect, anyway, are very important. Yes. Yes, and I think it’s very important that schools and parents understand not to radicalize, right, judgments, because there are many teenagers who don’t speak out. I’ve seen many teenagers, and there were several victims of this cyberbullying with the exchange of nude images, and many, like, didn’t talk to their parents. And many times I called the parents, I said: “Regardless of whether you sent it, if you didn’t send it, you’re being a victim.” You’re a victim, because that’s blackmail. Okay, Okay, okay. The criminal is on the other side. Yes. So, we’re not here to judge. Let’s prepare ourselves so we don’t fall into a trap like that later, okay? But right now, we choose the victim or the criminal. You can’t choose both, or protect the criminal. I did social work with teenagers at a school that also had a high rate of violence. And then I started a therapy group. That’s where I fell in love with groups. I have one that deals with victims of narcissists, but the first group with teenagers there was exactly this place , like, let me hear you, what are you going through in your reality? There’s no point in saying you went and did this; it’s done. Because this aggression, all of this is a symptom, right? No. And if it’s done, if there’s a criminal act that was committed, you choose. You’re on the side of the criminal or the victim. The victim. Later, we’ll come preventively, but it’s pointless, otherwise you just push the person further away. And that’s what happens in abusive relationships: the victim is revictimized. Exactly, right? It’s not welcomed, it’s not understood. Exactly. Because if you have that idea, right? You didn’t try, you have to try some more. You’ve said it so many times because you didn’t leave, right? You’re losing credibility. And this, in fact, isn’t because you don’t want to, it’s not because you want to be there, it’s because you really can’t leave. Exactly. Next, Bru. What differentiates a difficult relationship from an abusive bond? And is there a warning sign that’s always reliable to identify this difference? Good question too. This group alone is quite dedicated. Really quite, I confess. They surprise me. Let’s go. A difficult bond. All bonds are difficult because imagine you’re with someone who thinks differently, was raised differently, has a different culture. So, negotiating will always be in vogue, right? Negotiation will always be on the menu. Exactly, right? Choices, needs, sacrifices. That in itself is difficult. Difficult relationships, from what I understand, are abusive traits, toxic traits, but it’s not necessarily the abusive relationship itself. I usually say that the first and foremost thing to observe is the willingness to change, to acknowledge the mistake. Uh-huh. Geez, I messed up. Now I recognize it, I understand the impact it had on your life. I commit to not doing it again, and not just in words, in actions. Attitudes. This is clear, because a person isn’t prevented from making mistakes, but they have the possibility of choosing not to make them again. So, OK, cheating, some people don’t tolerate it, others forgive it. If it was a one-off, if there was negotiation, if there was conversation and everything, this can be overcome, and the relationship can be very healthy after that, I say this, after this earthquake that shakes the foundations and then they rebuild everything again. Pray that in intrinsic abusive relationships, it only repeats itself. So I keep cheating, I keep hitting, I keep criticizing, lying, disqualifying, right? Next. Bru, is it possible to rebuild trust in new relationships after having been through abuse? Yes, yes. Building trust requires a series of factors. I usually say that I break all these factors down to the smallest detail so that it can actually be done. Because the idea is, look, like a child needing to digest food, and we know that in the beginning it’s just breast milk. Then we introduce solids with baby food and things like that. Then we start with solids, smaller solids. To get to today, we eat sushi, pizza, and barbecue, and everything is fine sometimes, right? But that’s it. So, we prepare this emotional state. So, the first thing, the first step, is to acknowledge that you experienced the abusive relationship, name it, understand what you felt, why you felt it, why it’s so difficult. Then you really start to learn how to protect yourself, because these abusive relationships often proliferate in various areas of our lives. When we give too much of ourselves, when we say yes to everyone, we attract people who expect high availability, who expect us to always be there doing one thing or another for them and neglecting to prioritize ourselves. Then of learning to protect yourself and learn the signs of these relationships, there’s a whole place where it’s like, “Okay, now there’s space for me. All this energy that was displaced there is now mine. So, what am I going to do? How am I going to grow? How am I going to see myself as a person, as a woman, as a man, as a professional?” Uh-huh. And then there’s work to be done along those lines. Then that’s it, okay? Now that I’m comfortable with myself on my own, now I’ll be open to meeting people. And I say, do a good selection process for the CEO of your love life. Great. Because you can’t want to fill that position and not expect a résumé that’s up to par. So, go out a lot, kiss on the mouth, date, do whatever you want, but from the moment someone proposes to enter your life, choose carefully, because many people will present themselves as a narcissist who was super interested and who was the perfect partner. But then you’ll have to evaluate the signs and then, after this stage, ” OK, now I’ve found someone, now I’ll invest slowly, it’s like getting into the relationship. First, get your feet wet, then your shins, your knees, and then you can dive in.” You go little by little, and then you’ll understand the maintenance of a healthy relationship, because just winning isn’t enough, right? Definitely. Maybe the hardest thing is maintaining it. So I completely, completely understand that there’s a way to rebuild trust, if you understand it well. You said something so interesting, this “na” thing in your relationship, where you were trying to solve the other person’s problem, right, in this movement of giving. This is very common in people, right, in victims of abusive relationships. Uh, that’s also not something any healthy relationship should, uh, how do you say it? Break off. Because, for example, uh, that happens a lot, the victim starts, starts another relationship and wants to do everything for the other, solve everything for the other, as if they needed to be a household help. And sometimes someone who’s with you is just talking about a problem because they’re venting, like, you know, talking. Then the person thinks they have to do something to solve it, as if, like, if I’m not useful, you know, I won’t be loved, you know what I’m saying? Because I saw that happen a lot. Then you say something like: “Guys, but there’s no need, it was just a rant. I need to occupy a relevant space, and often that’s by serving. I have male patients in this case, coincidentally, and they have this logic . They are, they are opening themselves up to relationships again, and so they want it, because of their background, because of everything they’ve been through, they want to analyze the family, they want to, you know, treat people, develop everything in their lives. Exactly. Look, this is trauma from the past, this comes from the other relationship, this comes from the family, your work has to be done this way to grow. And then you come with the logic of a savior or a rehabilitation center, and it’s not genuine. Once again, it’s disproportionate, once again, it’s unbalanced. That’s not what makes the other person stay. Yeah, sometimes the other person doesn’t want any service, right? There’s also a limit, right? This feeling of having to give, to provide service to be important. And people are important because they are important, not because they do this or that. And beyond the fusion, Right? The fusion of wanting to do everything together, there’s no longer any individuality. Now I’m part of all your means and at all times. And in a healthy relationship, no. That is, there’s the me, the you, and the us. Yes, right? And that’s cool, right? Next, Bru. Is there a connection between emotional dependence and a history of past traumas? Total, total relationship. When we make the first records of what are bonds for us, what is love, what is fear, what is separation anxiety, abandonment. These traumas are recorded and they will continue to bother us, they will continue to make noise in us, even if we don’t consciously realize it, we are captured by the routine and go on with life. But they stay there, look Bruno, look at Beatriz, there are things here that we need to look at, there are things you were born to do, there are things you were born to feel. And then we put ourselves in positions of compensation. This compensation is not always healthy. So, Let’s go. I’m anxious. Just like I was anxious to come here today. So, what am I going to do to ease this anxiety? I could eat a sweet, which is what everyone usually uses there to access and compensate. But that’s not good, because it trains me to say, look, every time you feel anxious, worried, you’ll have a spike of energy that then drops and you’ll use a completely harmful resource for you, because it will harm your health and everything else. So we compensate when we create traumas, emptiness, lacks, because my parents were very critical, my parents were distant, and so I don’t blame these parents, because sometimes that ‘s what they could give, right? It’s the tools they had, sometimes parents who worked too much, so I never saw their children or, you know, situations, there’s no family member or another, you know, for support, you know, the child didn’t feel supported. Yes, sometimes the father abandoned, the mother abandoned, the child was raised with a grandmother, an uncle, a brother—so, some support figures were missing, and this leaves a record of the void. Because we can’t understand what this is, we keep trying to fit people and things together, and once again, the piece doesn’t fit, the piece doesn’t fit, and we keep searching. So, we need more, too much, too much. And then it consumes relationships. What you ‘re saying is interesting, right? Because no one treats the trauma of another other than themselves, right? Often , it’s not even identified, right? Yeah. No. And your trauma is different from mine. What is trauma for me isn’t for you or for Bruno, you know? For example, trauma is how I react, not necessarily what happened to me, but the reaction my mind gave to something dysfunctional. And what you said, I thought was wonderful, right? Because there’s no point in blaming the father and mother. I think therapy begins when we, well, they were like, OK, so what can I do from there without resentment, without resentment? It’s given what it can give, and you’re going to have to do magic, juggling, or reinvention with it to compensate. Yes, I spent about 30 years with a phobia of frogs. I couldn’t even see an image like that on a fixed screen. And then, without understanding it, I simply dealt with anguish. So, it was a fear. So, I don’t even think about it because a frog would never kill you on screen. Imagine. So that’s what I’m saying. Never, right? It wouldn’t happen. If that were the case, it’s a real phobia. If it were real, I could still say, “Look, something could happen, he could come towards me.” Still, he couldn’t threaten your life. That’s why it’s a groundless fear. Exactly. And so I spent 30 years like that, running away from that place, but I just understood it was a fear and let it go. When I experienced something, it took over me, but I, you know, carried on. When I went to get treatment for it, I saw in therapy that it had to do with a childhood memory where a classmate had had an allergy on her face and said it was supposedly frog urine. And that registered, and since it was a phase when I suffered the most bullying, I was like, I linked one thing to another and made an association. And I was like, look, the most difficult phase of my life , it has to do with frogs. And then I, poor frogs, wasn’t to blame for anything, but I spent 30 years stuck in these things. Are you saying something? I love butterflies, but when I was 8 years old, I remember someone in my class, a classmate, one day the supervisor came in and said: “Oh, so-and-so, you have to leave.” Oh, your grandmother came back from a trip, I don’t know what. Then so-and-so, oh, bye, Bia, bye, just a little friend, like, we’d stay together at recess talking. My little friend never came back. Then, one day I went to the teacher and said: “What happened? Grandma died, you’re not because her mother was creating that butterfly experience, the cocoon, I don’t know what. That cocoon, she inhaled, I don’t know what, got cancer and died. At the time I said: “Boy, I got a fear of butterflies. I love butterflies.” Then, many years later, it bothered me. When I entered medical school, I started studying things, man, it doesn’t make any sense. Now, what creature justifies a person’s cancer because of the cocoon? Yes, that when the butterfly opened, a powder came out. Look at this. The woman inhaled. I I said: “Guys, what an absurd thing. Thank goodness I didn’t have a phobia, but I was so funny. This thing is dangerous, guys. I love butterflies and nowadays I go into butterfly houses, you know? I think it’s beautiful, that movement. Now create a different story, right? The same reference, because I think it was the only one, because I went to ask, I wanted to know where was what happened to my friend who left to go to her grandmother, her grandmother was already coming to stay with her, right, to take her to São Paulo, because her mother lived, they lived in Rio, I never saw her again. Yes. He linked the disappearance with then the explanation, I mean, imagine the butterfly is going to open, then releases a powder and the powder gives cancer, my God. Terminal, right? There is one, there is one, yeah, there is an author of psychoanalysis who says that our emotional system is like a digestive system and then we develop, we grow and it is able to digest more complex and dense things. When we are children there, right, obviously a A pat is that cry, because it doesn’t hurt specifically, but the feeling of helplessness is absurd and goes beyond, right? It overflows. When we experience trauma, regardless of the stage, even in adulthood, it’s an excess of information, like a buffet for a stomach unprepared to handle it. And then we feel sick, we get congestion, some little problem arises that later causes discomfort. When we look at the trauma, that’s it. It leaves unpleasant marks that exceed our capacity to process. Because we have to relive it to talk about the logic of it. Exactly. We remember, relive the feeling so that now we’re better prepared to process it, not to see what’s real in it, right? It’s butterfly dust. Really, when I said one day that it can be a butterfly, people, for God’s sake, they could have told a different story, right? Like, she had an accident, fell down the stairs too. Look, she went to live, yeah, it’s over, she went to live in São Paulo because she never came back, right? Butterfly dust . Really, I don’t even remember what it was. The teacher who told me this. I forgot, thank God. I’ve been listening, right? For God’s sake. Don’t do that again. Next time, Bru. What do we need to understand about forgiveness when talking about narcissistic parents or partners? When we say that family members are narcissists, it’s difficult to completely break the bond, right? Well, there’s a social morality, there’s the idea of the family institution, what does that represent? There are also religious issues that prevail, and even the genuine love we have for our parents, regardless of what they’ve done for us or failed to do, right? So, when we work on the logic of forgiveness, we understand that it worked this way. There’s a pathology that will condition the person to be that way, but that’s not determinative and doesn’t need to continue affecting you. So, clear boundaries need to be established. Look, maybe we stop interacting as much anymore, we see ourselves in specific moments, right? We see a lot of cases of elderly parents, right? Who need professional assistance or even siblings taking turns caring for them. So the idea… That’s it, there’s another, and this other won’t change. They’ll continue with this abusive, manipulative dynamic. What are we going to do to protect ourselves? Let’s think about COVID. First, COVID came and devastated many families, many lives. From the moment we started protecting ourselves, identifying what it was, how to protect ourselves, isolate, wear masks, use hand sanitizer, and then the vaccines, we were able to say, “Look, even if I get close and get infected, I’m no longer as affected, not exactly harmful to life. This won’t kill me anymore, right?” Exactly. So, concretely, learning to cope is possible. Uh-huh. I’m not saying it’s easy. There’s a lot of practice to avoid being affected. And forgiveness, well, forgiveness is a delicate word, because you might never forgive. I think forgiveness isn’t forgetting, it’s no longer having the reaction of repulsion or fear, of dread. Exactly. And forgiving doesn’t mean you have to open the door and take them inside your house and hold them in your arms, live together, right? Right? You can forgive from a distance, do your role of caring, of helping to care, Even if you do, and even because carrying this hatred and hurt is very heavy, and understanding that the attacks will come constantly, that there’s no conversation or dialogue that can resolve this, that it doesn’t exist, but that it has nothing to do with you, it’s someone else, it’s that insatiable hunger. I need this behavior. I need this behavior. For example, you have to not be the food for this hunger, and then you close the emotional door, shield yourself. You can, you can go out there and live, and then you’re devalued and criticized, but you go out saying, “Look, I took a shower, it’s not my thing, I’ll clean myself, this doesn’t belong to me.” This poison isn’t mine, right? Exactly. And then you move on with your life, because a lot of guilt really comes up when it’s the parents, right? Very close, Bru. Do social media, with so many relationship coaches, help or hinder those seeking to escape abusive cycles? Yeah, it’s difficult, right? Sometimes they help, sometimes they hinder. I think in what sense? There’s no magic solution , right? Well, sharing knowledge is valid, right? But we have to be critical of that knowledge. You didn’t watch a video, read something, and adopt it as absolute truth, and I’ll bring that into my life. It’s about understanding, look, it makes sense, it has a basis, what’s the origin of this knowledge? There’s a lot of talk about effects, right? And a lot of this stuff when people say, ‘I created a method that says you’ll recover from an abusive relationship in 12 days. ‘ Yeah, it doesn’t exist. It’s a slow process. Well, like everything, any change isn’t magic. How is there magic? Thinking that over the course of my 36 years I’ll heal everything in 12 days is fanciful, to say the least, right? I’ve been in therapy for 12 years, and there are still things to review and everything. So, sharing helps, but you have to be critical. Maybe it helps to raise awareness, but not necessarily the solution. Exactly. And getting in the way of that, right? With promises, with fantasy, a weekend experience, everything fell apart, didn’t fall apart, and especially with the narcissistic idea that they see me as a reference, that I’m the master who will solve things, I’ll tell you where to go. Exactly. And like every narcissistic pattern, the bait comes, I use what you used to do for what you used to do for me, and then I discard you. Because if you couldn’t do it, it was you who didn’t have the capacity. You didn’t have the capacity; it was your resistance. Exactly, right? So, every process, whether it’s a relationship or a professional transformation, we only become good at what we do for a long time, right? And learning from mistakes. Learning from mistakes, stumbling, revising. So, everything takes time. Pregnancy takes time, school, college, planting, harvesting. Exactly. The phases of the moon, another. There’s no point in trying to spin the sun faster to get through the year. It has its moment. Exactly. Next, Bru. Do narcissistic people feel guilt, and is there a certain type that attracts them? You even mentioned that. Well, yes, they don’t feel guilt, right? If they felt guilt, it would encourage them to take responsibility, to act differently, to change. So they don’t have that place of guilt. They will actually act according to their interests, thinking about primary and secondary gains, but it’s always about gaining something, whether it’s supply, status, financial gain, right? Power, whatever. Exactly. It’s always this bias: something has to come to me from something I need, something that ‘s interesting. Uh-huh. The blood trail that will get in the way or the people I’ll steamroll over—they don’t feel remorse, they don’t feel guilt. The pathology prevents them. That’s the big issue. We’re talking about a place where there’s something there, a pre-installed chip that says, “Look, act this way.” It’s very difficult. Yes, it’s very difficult. And the type that really attracts them are these more insecure, more emotionally dependent people, who tend to idealize, right, these figures of power, of control, right, and who will believe in the story of the “carochinha,” “carochinha,” as they used to say, “carochinha,” exactly, right? Because when it comes to saints, too much charity, the saint is suspicious, it’s very intense, it’s very fast, it’s very wonderful, the fit is 100% unanimous. So, days like that, oh, having a great relationship, but it always comes with a dose, It always comes with a dose of imperfection, there are things to adjust, and a relationship will always have things to adjust, right? From beginning to end. The eternal, right? Forever. And eternal. Exactly. Like us too, right? It adjusts. And that’s good. And that’s how it is, it’s the story, yeah, it’s the game of life, right? True. Next, Bru. Why is it so hard to break up even knowing it’s bad? There are several factors involved. There’s the emotional dependence that already exists, but which is greatly accentuated by the narcissist. He makes you believe he’s the only person who will love you, care for you, and be there for you. There’s the chemical dependence, right? That hormonal fluctuation ends up creating this instability, this punishing, this release of dopamine. This person becomes addicted to it. Great. Oh, there’s also the issue, right, of that idea of invested time. So, I’ve already invested so much, I’ll invest a little more. There’s the logic of social pressure that demands we be with someone, right? Yeah, being married, being in a relationship is status. Often, bonds are lost because, like, all my friends are married. If I’m single, I won’t be invited anymore, or if I’m single, I won’t have anyone to go out with. So, starting life over is harder. We, too, as primitive human beings, saved energy to survive, right? Survival of the species. Today, we also survive based on this logic. How do we save? The new awakens anxiety. The new, we don’t. I don’t know if I’ll date in a few months, a year, or only 10 years. That thing about fear of the new, comfort zone, right? It’s uncomfortable. An uncomfortable comfort zone. Exactly. But it’s familiar. Yeah, it’s familiar. And it is, and I’m terrible, but it’s familiar. And I’m already, in quotation marks, able to deal with it. Exactly. I’m enduring the unbearable. Exactly. Enduring the unbearable. And then it gets difficult because there are all these religious movements, uh, family beliefs, right, that you can’t separate. There are many factors that will vary, right? There’s a play that’s no longer running called Zezé Polessa, wonderful, which was, “I’m not happy, but I have a husband.” That play, wow, if it ever comes back, people should see it. It’s a super abusive relationship, but that’s exactly it. I’m not happy, but I have a husband. So this satisfaction of giving to society, the woman led a miserable life, with a miserable husband, but she was married. Exactly. Right? And in narcissistic relationships, apparently for society it’s wonderful. But behind closed doors, the reality is different. Exactly. And really, this way I fulfill a social requirement. I don’t even know why I’m fulfilling it, they’re forced to do this and subject themselves to spending their whole life. Yeah, it’s like living in a concentration camp. Super dangerous. Very dangerous. Next, Bru. Can those on the outside help someone trapped in this type of relationship? It can be quite like that, right? I think that when it comes to a support network, whether family or friends, when a friend, right, someone comes to you and tells you they’re not doing well, the first thing you do is be there. Understand that, even if they’re reporting something dysfunctional, abusive, unacceptable, there’s something you learn there. First, because everything is very subtle at first. We don’t get slapped in the face in the first week of a relationship. It creeps up on us little by little, right? Criticism about our clothes, our way of smiling, about our close, dear friends, that drives us away. So, when it reaches this heightened level of violence, it’s because too much has already been tolerated. And there’s also something very dangerous that I saw with Bruno in patients who suffered abuse. It’s that, somehow, this physical abuse started out as something nice in the romantic relationship. Ah, fetish. Look, the fetish. And then, when it happened outside, it wasn’t so strange. I’ve had women who thought it was a harbinger of even good things today. And it wasn’t. Look, look how confusing it is, this whole spanking fetish thing. And then when you get spanked, there’s no such thing outside of that context, it’s like, “I know this one, the fetish has all these ramifications, right?” The first idea of who a man is: the rough, violent, macho man, who hits hard, who does things, and what happens. And then when you’re in a healthy relationship that doesn’t have all that, Oops, it’s no good. Exactly. Or he doesn’t love me. Exactly, right? There’s the issue of prevailing social machismo that places this as something normal and naturalized within any type of relationship. I’ve been seeing some videos on social media lately, and then the algorithm, you know, leads you to consume them. Oh, teenagers or young women, usually from the community, giving interviews and talking about what kind of man they like. Oh, I like the criminals, the tattooed ones, the ones with guns in their hands, the ones who punch me in the ribs, right? And then, that’s so dangerous, very dangerous, because it’s normalizing disrespect. Exactly. The punch in the ribs, then it’ll be in the face, then, right? Then it leads to femicide. Exactly. It’ll inflate the femicide statistics, right? So this place is quite dangerous, because it comes from pornography, right, which performs the one who subjugates the other, performs that stereotype of the police officer, the lumberjack, of a situation X, Y, Z, of the dominator, right, which puts you in a place of real vulnerability and danger. Exactly. Because, let’s say, more mature people understand that in a little while in bed they’ll fulfill a fetish, but later it’s the person in your life, then it’s the person of Now people who come with this logic of simply adopting this as a generalized behavior, they won’t separate, they don’t separate, it’s too dangerous. It’s very dangerous. Next, Bru. Ah, we’ve reached our pipinho moment, which is our ping pong, our pickle ball. Do you know what pickle ball is? Yes. Ah, do you see the channel? Ah, did you see? Very good. It could be one or the other. Now is that time when we throw a question, a phrase, and whatever comes to your mind, uh, you answer. One, among so much listening and pain that reaches you, what still moves and touches you deeply? I believe in hope. I live for the hope of healing, of transformation, of a new life. Perfect. Two, overcoming. It’s possible, it’s a reality. Three, family. It’s everything, but you have to be careful, because they’re usually the ones who promote these patterns. You have to build and you have to fix. Exactly. Or deconstruct what ‘s not right. Four. Complete the sentence. A healthy relationship is exchange, it’s light, there’s a lot of admiration, because I think the main nutrient of love is admiration, encouraging your partner to grow, to prosper. So I would say that in this sense, admiration is abur, admiration, lightness, purpose, purpose. Five. If the world ended tomorrow, what would you do today? Oh, I’ll be with my children. Six. A happy memory. A happy memory. H. Oh, how difficult. It’s difficult. Take, take, take, these traumatic ones, we remember because we need to have them, but then it’s happy. It’s precisely the happy one. I think today I want to remember this moment as a very happy one, not traumatic. Not traumatic. Seven. If you had a superpower and could choose, what would it be? Any superpower. I think I ‘ll end hunger. Perfect. Eight. An essential habit. Physical activity. Nine. Happiness. There it is with people I love. And 10. A phrase or a thought you’d like to leave behind, which could be from someone else, it could be yours, it could be an explanation, whatever you want. Well, I really like a phrase that has to do with butterflies, which is “Take care of your garden and the butterflies will follow.” It’s very simple, but it’s very meaningful because it represents this process of transformation, of investing in myself, which will reverberate in good things coming, good things happening. So it’s self-care, it’s studying, it’s growing, which is good, and transformation too, right? No, I don’t have any butterfly trauma today, okay? I love it, I love it. Thank goodness, everything’s still resolved, my dear. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to have you here. A real pleasure. I’ll give you two little gifts. You can put everything you get there and the kids will arrange it for you. This is the happiness I wrote during the pandemic, right? So we don’t let sadness take over, right? We need to try to find it within. And we need this one from time to time, because happiness is a construction, and when you leave an abusive relationship, you truly believe you’ll never be happy again. Then you build the your path to happiness. And when we insert pills from a glass half full, instead of a glass half empty, it makes all the difference, right? Better, right? That’s why I’m saying, happiness is a verb, right? We’ll have to practice. This one was launched last year, at the end of last year, when I created this self-care, right, which are my phrases, each day I talk about 10 minutes of daily mental self-care. I have this one, but now autographed. Then you pass the other one on to someone. And I thought I’d bring you a gift like this, even to thank you for the invitation, precisely thinking about the central idea of the book, like, great. So, it’s a little tea accessory. Oh, how great. Did you like the tea? Delicious. Tasty, right? It’s sugar-free, it’s the cinnamon decantation that’s there. And we’re not finished. We have here, look, the Pipinho Ecobag, it’s with ours, with our inspiration, right, that we believe. Make it happen, inspire, so we can inspire people, right? Otherwise, we were all for nothing. If we couldn’t positively inspire people, this is for you to have a notebook, to take notes, your professional travel projects with your kids, so we don’t lose the habit of writing, right, which I think is kind of important. And here’s a kite powder mug for you to drink your tea, your coffee and remember us, okay? Don’t forget us. Super used. I also have the goodies. So here we go, please. I’m going to use the Icobag on the beach in Floripa. Look, look. Hey Gustavo, be careful not to eat mine, okay? It’s because G, this is the roll, right? I cheated a little, I heard she liked roll cake. So you found out because of Caik, right ? Dear Caik, dear singer, I love that boy. So here it is, look, guys. Don’t worry, Gustavo, okay? Gustavo has a thing for sweets, you know? Exaggerated. Let’s see here. Oh, how cute. How cute. It comes with the diffuser. Look there. Put it here to put in the tea. And then he holds his little arms out like this. Oh, look at this. Look at this, guys. After tea, life begins. I loved it. Thank you so much, my dear. Now is the time to be really rude, look at that camera, take the microphone with you and give all your messages. Make sure it’s in the right place. Perfect. So, first of all, I wanted to thank you, right, for the opportunity to be here with you. It’s an honor, an idol. And I’d like to take this opportunity to invite you to follow me on social media, on Instagram, on TikTok, @pissbrunfel with two fb accounts. There I work daily with themes of narcissism, but mainly helping you strengthen yourself emotionally. I also have ebooks available for anyone who wants to access them. I have a therapy group where I meet every Wednesday at 8 p.m. We have live sessions, where we talk a little about how each person is experiencing their difficult moments, and it also serves as a support network. So that’s it, thank you for your kindness, for the invitation, and I hope to see you there. We appreciate it. Dear ones, we’re finishing another episode of Pipo. Today was with Bruno Rufel. If you don’t know him, I suggest you check out his Instagram, psi.brunfel Bruno Rufel with two FS so you can understand what a healthy relationship is, what an abusive relationship is, what’s good for our lives, what the healthy relationship we have to learn to build is. And often we’ll have to revisit our traumas so we can build a garden where butterflies want to stay. If you’re not subscribed to the channel, subscribe and share this chat with people you think need and deserve the knowledge, because here in the People community, only knowledge and self-awareness can build a better, or perhaps sustainable, human being. Thank you very much, and see you in the next podcast, M.